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In the summer of 2011, an ancient tomb belonging to the period of the Turks was excavated in Bulgan aimag Bayannuur Som in the central region of Mongolia. Interestingly, in the course of excavation, pictures of the Blue Dragon and the White Tiger similar to the tomb murals of Koguryo were discovered. Therefore, Northeast Asian History Foundation invited Ayudai Ochir, Director of the Institute of the History of Nomadic Culture of Mongolia to provide a lecture on 27 October on the topic 'The Results and Achievement of the Excavation of the Tomb Murals of the Turks during the 7th Century'. After the lecture, there was an interview between Director Ayudai Ochir and Foundation's research fellow JANG Seog-ho, which is introduced in this newsletter. – Note by the editor.

JANG Seog-ho : It has been reported in your presentation that murals were found for the first time in Mongolia, and we could confirm that there are important items for comparison with Koguryo's tomb mural. You must have had fresh feelings at the discovery. Could you tell me the situation at the time of discovery and how you felt when you saw the mural.

Ochir : When excavating the tomb at first, mural appeared on the wall next to the way leading to the underground. I was surprised as soon as I saw the paintings. I still remember my feelings clearly. As such murals had never been found in Mongolia, surprise was followed by thoughts like 'how can we preserve this to the future generations in its perfect condition' and 'what should we do to start research immediately?'. Now the research has just begun, but we could see instantly that there are a lot of similarities between the newly discovered mural and other murals in East Asia because we already knew about murals in the surrounding areas like Koguryo and China. In order to conduct the research more scientifically based on facts, we strongly feel the necessity of conducting joint studies with research personnel specializing in ancient tomb murals of East Asia.

JANG Seog-ho : After the release of the outcome of the excavation, someone asked the reason why the mural had more similarities with ancient tomb murals of Koguryo than they were influenced by China. I would like to know what impression you had as an expert after looking at the mural and which side had deeper connection with the mural.

Ochir : First of all, I too was very surprised at the mural. Until now, there had never been any remaining sites or items, so I had even thought that Mongolia had nothing to do with tomb murals. I was surprised again because the mural was very similar to those tomb murals of Koguryo. Until now, I had been focusing on China alone for my studies. But, then I discovered important items for me to conduct studies on production, themes and styles of murals from a new perspective.
Through this mural, I saw a new type of nomadic culture in the north. If you look at the dragon in the picture of the four deities, various things including antler, eyes of a ghost, camel's head, tiger's front legs and eagle's claws all combined in it. It is a hybrid image of these days. In the tradition of putting various animals together to create an image, elements of nomadic and hunters cultures are more involved than those of agricultural culture. So, I think that we have to find the origin in the cultures of hunters and nomadic tribes in the north and also find how these cultures have been succeeded until now. We will be able to find out the nature more clearly if we compare the excavated items with remaining sites in surrounding countries like China and Korea simultaneously. Personally, this is the most urgent research that has to be conducted.

JANG Seok-ho : This mural is also important for studying tomb murals in central Asia and Koguryo. Do you have a plan to conduct a research on the tomb murals?

Director Ayudai Ochir

Ochir : It is the first time that Mongolia has ever discovered a mural. We do not have research manpower. We don't have time or money to solve problems facing us now, but we have a plan to do two things later. First, we are going to conduct a study comparing the newly discovered mural with other tomb murals in surrounding areas in order to find their characteristics in an objective scientific way. Some scholars who have seen the mural say that it was influenced a lot by China because the tomb belongs to the period when the Tang Dynasty existed. However, it appears that this mural with distinctive Mongolian atmosphere may have been influenced by the Korean peninsula or Munchu in the east and even Rome or Byzantine Empire in the west rather than China. Also, I think that it can be compared with the murals of the Khitans that have been excavated a lot these days in China.
Second, there are several other similar sites in Mongolia at present, and we are going to conduct a study after finding resources from these other sites that can be compared with the newly discovered tomb mural. If Korea and Mongolia conduct researches together on the historical site that will become important resources, we will be able to produce the best possible result.

JANG Seog-ho : How many tombs and murals similar to this are there? Also, you've mentioned that you'd like conducting joint researches. If joint studies are to be conducted, how should those studies be performed ?

Ochir : There are about four more tombs similar to this in Mongolia. These tombs have similar forms on the outside. Our senior scholars thought that these tombs would probably be remains of collapsed fortress. It may be true, but I am confident that they are tombs.
Korea and Mongolia have conducted joint researches for the last 20 years in various ways. Since Korea and Mongolia established a joint academic research forum in 1991, the two countries have consistently conducted joint studies. Looking at the outcomes of recent archeological researches jointly conducted by Korea and Mongolia, a large number of relics have been discovered proving that Korea and Mongolia had close relations of exchange from the early ages of history. Therefore, more systematic long-term plan is needed for our joint studies to be conducted.

JANG Seog-ho : As said just now, various relics have recently been discovered confirming that there had been exchanges between Korea and Mongolia since long time ago. For example, there are relics of the past proving relations between Korea and Mongolia including :
a monument showing exchanges between the Malgal (靺鞨) and the nomadic tribes in Mongolia around the 7th century; traces of the people of Balhae who lived in Mongolia from the later 10th century to the early 11th century; and various others. What is your opinion about these new discoveries?

Ochir : History is the history of discoveries. If new discoveries are made, the existing history has to be amended with corrections. There have been new interpretations about the relations between Korea and Mongolia through continuously discovered archeological resources, remaining historical sites and items. With accumulation of these evidences, we have come to understand that significant amount of errors exist in established and widely accepted theories. Our duty is to find evidences that will prove what we have assumed until now. The bit of a horse has been found in the last excavation, which means that there was a wider cultural area in Central Asia including Mongolia and even Korea. It can be argued that as soon as humans started to freely control the horse, the differences between regions became gradually weaker and one large homogeneous cultural area was formed. The horse bit worked like the mobile phone or the internet of today. Now we have to trun our eyes, which have been fixed on China for long, to the north so that we will focus our attention on large cultures similar to ours and try to seek the origin.

JANG Seog-ho : With regard to the prehistoric and ancient cultures in Central Asia and the Korean peninsula, what meaning does Mongolia have in terms of history and culture? Also, how did Mongolia contribute to the histories of Central Asia and the world?

Ochir : The nomadic tribes in Mongolia and numerous other nomadic tribes that established their countries in Central Asia were in between the East and the West, the two settlement civilizations, for thousands of years, playing certain roles for exchanges between the two sides. In other words, the East and the West have been able to have exchanges through the nomadic peoples. This role was based on the mobile ability that nomadic people are born with. After all, the nomadic cultures in Mongolia and Central Asia should be important essential topics for us to deal with whether we study the world history or the settlement culture in the West.

JANG Seog-ho : A lot of scholars think that the nomadic and agricultural cultures oppose each other and have limited knowledge to the surface of nomadic culture. What is the real nature of nomadic culture? Also, what is the weight and meaning of Mongolia in the history of nomadic culture?

Ochir : In the early days of human civilization, all humans were moving course. As time passed, two cultures evolved: settlement and nomadic cultures. The two cultures have always coexisted in the history and have given and taken what they have needed through exchanges and mutual reliance. Nomadic people, in particular, with their peculiar mobility passed not just their cultures but also cultures and products of other people to other areas, giving positive influences on the development of the world history. The Mongols have contributed in various ways in the history of the world and the history of nomadic cultures in Central Asia. While there were some negative aspects, the Mongolian occupation of Eurasia helped the humans realize new civilizations and understand each other more deeply, I think. I feel frustrated by the fact that the traditional life of nomadic tribes only exists in Mongolia and it is about to disappear in several decades.

JANG Seog-ho, Research fellow

JANG Seog-ho : Northeast Asian History Foundation established the Forum of Historians and Archeologists of Korea and Mongolia on November 9. How do you feel about the forum's foundation?

Ochir : Now is the most appropriate time to establish the Forum of Historians and Archeologists of Korea and Mongolia at the 20th anniversary of the amity of the two nations. If the researches and exchanges between scholars of both countries have facilitated understanding each other in the introductory stage, I am looking forward to seeing further active exchanges between the two.

JANG Seog-ho : I am interested in what topics will be regarded as important by the Foundation when it conducts joint studies with Mongolia. Does the Foundation have any plan?

Ochir : One of the urgent topics for our joint studies with Mongolia will be about Gojoseon. We have to work together on matters like defining the historical nature of Gojoseon, studying the culture of Koguryo, and dealing with issues relating to Balhae. In this way, we will be able to restore lost or unrecorded ancient histories of the Korean and Mongolian peoples. Formative arts like rock paintings and tomb murals can explain what cannot be explained with written records. Therefore, academic institutions of Korea and Mongolia will have to jointly conduct excavations and find out the nature through comparative studies.
Confronted with the Northeast Project, Korea at present has to work about it. As Mongolia also suffers from China's distortion of its history, it is necessary to explore joint actions about it in my opinion. I hope that we will be able to build a system in which scholars of both countries will upgrade their studies and share the results together.