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Editor's Note: To facilitate joint research among the domestic and international scholars of East Asian territory and history, the NAHF is running a program that invites and supports influential overseas scholars to conduct research. Professor Bang Min-ho came on board in September, immersing himself in research on the history of modern Korea-China relations. Professor Bang Min-ho gave an interview with NAHF Research Fellow Kim, Jeong Hyun, talking about Li Hongzhang (李鴻章), one of the key figures who determined the Korea policy during the late Qing period, the Sino-Japanese War, etc.

Q Kim Jeong Hyun I understand that the history of Korea-China relations is your key research area. Why or how did you become interested in the modern history of Korea-China relations?

A Bang Min-ho Modern Chinese history has been my favorite subject since college years. The first class that I was asked to teach when I became a college professor was also modern Chinese history. I was also influenced to a certain degree by an academic trend after the opening up of China that placed importance on the modern history of foreign relations. Furthermore, in the 1980s, research on the history of Northeast Asian international relations emerged rapidly as a specialized research area, making systematic research possible. Within the community of Chinese historians, Yanbian University is considered to have strengths in Korean history. All these factors allowed me to immerse myself in research on the modern history of Korea-China relations.

Q Kim Jeong Hyun I understand that you've published A Study on Li Hongzhang's Korea Policy. Li Hongzhang is one of the two historical figures of Qing in modern Korean history who are the most familiar to the Korean people, the other being Yuan Shikai (袁世凱). How is Li Hongzhang viewed by Chinese scholars?

A Bang Min-ho Li Hongzhang was the one who signed many unequal treaties on behalf of Qing during the modern period of Chinese history. That explains the overall negative image of Li Hongzhang that persisted until the 1970s. From the 1980s, however, as emphasis was placed on objectivity in historical research, Li Hongzhang began to be praised. From the 1990s, he began to be viewed in earnest as a politician/doer who supported and pushed for modernization. The rational was that the Qing dynasty at the time had been going downhill, and, under attacks from Western powers, there had been not many diplomatic policies to choose from, and that the Qing dynasty had been left with no choice but to sign unequal treaties.

I also think that Li Hongzhang was the first one who had the idea of modernization and tried to put it into practice while China was falling from the mid 19th century onward. But, being steeped in the feudal political system and ideology that had continued for the thousands of years of Chinese dynasties, he failed to come up with the specific ideas necessary to lead a new era. Given its reality at that time, China was not ready to accept a new era and new thinking, either. As a government official executing national policies, Li Hongzhang signed a number of treaties out of worry for the destiny of his country, but eventually failed to stop China from becoming a semi-colony. It is a shame that the roles played by historical figures are ultimately bound to be restricted by the structural limitations of the times and history.

Q Kim Jeong Hyun Li Hongzhang was the one who determined and coordinated China's Korea policy for a considerable period of time. What kind of East Asian international order did he conceive of, and what influence did his policy have on the modernization of Korea or Korea-China relations?

A Bang Min-ho In Chinese history, most politicians were thinkers and philosophers. But Li Hongzhang was an extremely pragmatic and practical politician. That explains why flowery rhetoric not grounded in reality is missing from the literature or records he left behind. The most urgent priority for Li Hongzhang was to tackle real work to understand the situation and solve the problem. He perceived that East Asia was in a situation where it "faced a rapid change that it hadn't experienced for thousands of years in the face of strong enemies that it hadn't encountered for thousands of years." Other than that, he couldn't conceive of any specific East Asian international order in a systematic way. From the 1860s to the early 1870s, he briefly considered confronting the West with Japan, but thought better of it as Japan began invading China continuously from the mid to late 1870s onward. As Qing was too weak to fend off the invading Western powers. it must have been difficult to even discuss the East Asian international order. The most urgent priority for politicians at the time was to figure out how to keep the Qing Dynasty going.

Zhang Peilum (張佩綸), a political figure at the time, commented on Li Hongzhang's diplomacy by saying "Even though he appeased Korea, he couldn't be the leader because he failed to defeat Japan." Li Hongzhang's Korea policy was based on the reality of the falling Qing Dynasty. Objectively speaking, I think that it ended up contributing to delaying Korea's independent modernization, irrespective of his intentions.

Q Kim Jeong Hyun Qing's Korea policy initially placed emphasis on independent diplomacy, bur later on moved toward interference in every matter. For instance, they kidnapped Regent Heungseon Daewongun during the 1882 Military Rebellion. Doesn't this suggest that Qing also attempted to change Korea-China relations into an imperialist relationship that was then in fashion?

A Bang Min-ho The supreme ideology that China (Qing) and Korea (Joseon) put at the core when trying to forge relations in feudal days is "We Are the World (天下一家) and There is Vertical Order (上下有序)" based on the traditionally shared culture of ideology. That explains why China didn't interfere in Korea's politics and diplomacy. But with the intervention of modern Western powers, the international relationship was transformed into a modern geopolitical relationship of safety interests. In this current of time, Li Hongzhang thought of Korea as the front line for the safety of Qing's key regions. He coordinated Qing's Korea policy while analyzing the impact of Japan's Korea policy on Qing. The stronger Japan's influence within Korea, the more demanding Qing became, increasingly interfering in Korea's politics and diplomacy. Although it is true that the more Qing increased its vigilance against Japan, the more Qing's Korea policy turned into an oppressive control policy, it will be far-fetched to say that Qing attempted an imperialist relationship, considering that Qing at the time was barely maintaining the feudal dynasty.

Q Kim Jeong Hyun Please briefly explain how Korea-China relations changed before and after the Sino-Japanese War. And as an authority on research in the Sino-Japanese War, what do you think is the significance of the 120th anniversary of the Sino-Japanese War?

A Bang Min-ho Before the Sino-Japanese War, Korea and China were in the tribute-investiture relationship as a traditional subordinate relationship. Qing interfered and controlled every aspect of Joseon from politics to economy, diplomacy, and military. After the Sino-Japanese War, they gradually began to seek a modern relationship that was equal under international law because the notion of a vassal state had been completely shattered and there was nothing left to be gained from oppression and interference anyway. Through the movement of independence activists or volunteer troops, or the establishment of the provisional government of Korea in Shanghai, their relationship evolved further into that of mutual cooperation for joint resistance against the invasions of foreign powers, including Japan.

The Sino-Japanese War that broke out 120 years ago was, I think, inevitable in light of the international situation of East Asia at the time. In other words, even if the Sino-Japanese War of 1894 hadn't broken out, something else would have caused changes one way or another in the relationships among the three nations of Korea, China, and Japan in modern days. The Sino-Japanese War is not an incident of any big significance to Chinese society, although the War's 120th anniversary is celebrated with academic conferences and a number of commemorative activities within the country. But there are voices within China calling for reflection on the country's failure then to fully understand the trends of the world and the changes of the times and to develop and improve itself. I agree with the Korean scholars who pointed out that given the Sino-Japanese War being a war that had broken out in Korean territory, not simply a war between China and Japan, the historical facts needed to be studied jointly by the three nations of Korea, China, and Japan as the parties to the war.

Q Kim Jeong Hyun Recently, Japan's Abe administration with a controversial perception of history is intensifying the conflict in Northeast Asia over the issues of history, nationalism, and territory. I believe that such conflict and the fever of nationalism need to be overcome before we could build a desirable future. In this connection, what do you think China and its neighboring countries should do to address and resolve these issues?

A Bang Min-ho It is a shame that conflict is intensifying among the three countries in East Asia that have had a long history and exchanged cultural traditions within the same region. Japan's rightward shift is nothing but the political tendency of some conversative forces, and it will not last long. The biggest problem with Japan's imperialist aggression is that they violated the basic human rights of mankind. But Japan is not willing to deal with it, but regarding it as an issue only with the Korean people or the Chinese people. As for the Nanjing Massacre, for example, Japan is debating the number of people killed. But such a debate does not matter. The fundamental problem is that there were times in the past when Japan abandoned the universal morality and belief of mankind. It is not important that Japan makes a superficial apology to the Korean and Chinese governments. If Japan admits its past of violating the basic rights of mankind, its neighboring countries will truly understand Japan and achieve historical reconciliation.

Q Kim Jeong Hyun Despite the increasingly brisk exchange between Korea and China, as can be seen in the rapidly growing numbers of students studying in the other country, conflict arises, too, because of a lack of mutual understanding. How can this problem be overcome?

A Bang Min-ho Conflict cannot arise among strangers. I think it is normal that increasing exchange brings about conflict. Given more cultural, educational, and private exchange, their mutual understanding will gradually become deeper. The Korean Chinese within China are also going through a lot of changes. The young Korean Chinese raised in the global age tend to be more independent and seek their individuality. Also, since they have lived in China for a long time, they have an increasingly stronger perception of China as a State. If these changes are considered and respected, mutual misunderstanding will be reduced.

Q Kim Jeong Hyun Please tell us about your most memorable experience during your research at the NAHF, and what you think the Northeast Asian History Foundation should be focused on doing in the future.

A Bang Min-ho Before I came here, I had often read the articles, lectures, and interviews by Secretary-General Seok Tong-Youn in major China newspapers, such as People's Daily and Global Times. My impression was that the Northeast Asian History Foundation was strongly committed to research for unity and exchange rather than the kind of research that would spark dispute. During my stay as a visiting scholar, short thought it was, I was deeply impressed by the Northeast Asian History Foundation doing its best in trying to overcome historical conflict and reconcile the reality with the future of the Northeast Asian region.

I wish that the NAHF, while continuing with its core projects, would choose systematic research subjects within a larger framework and seek to conduct the projects jointly with scholars overseas. Rather than limited research on specific events, research on topics with a broad range, such as Korea-China relations during a certain period, if done by a team of scholars of Northeast Asia including the three countries of Korea, China, and Japan, will produce good results. I hope that the NAHF will pioneer the joint research that will pave the way for reconciliation and stability in Northeast Asia.

A Study on Li Hongzhang's Korea Policy by Professor Bang Min-ho