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Since receiving his doctoral degree from Stanford University in 1983, Professor L. Shaughnessy has been actively conducting research in various fields, including ancient Chinese history, history of thought, and paleography. He is a veteran who has led the Department of East Asian Languages and Cultures at the University of Chicago for several decades, which has the largest presence in East Asian studies in Europe and America and is currently considered the most authoritative research in the field of Chinese studies in Europe and America. Despite being 71 years old, we met in the seminar room of the Department of Oriental History at Seoul National University to look back on his academic career and hear about his future plans, as he is expected to continue to be active in the future.

Intervieweeㅣ Professor Edward Shaughnessy, University of Chicago

Interviewerㅣ Lee Yoo-pyo, Research Fellow, Korea-China Relations Research Institute Foundation

Q. I’m curious about your purpose in coming to Korea this time.

A. At the invitation of my student, Professor Shim Jae-hoon of Dankook University, I visited Korea to give lectures at the Dankook University Institute of Ancient Civilization, Seoul National University Asia Research Institute, and Kyungpook National University Academy of Humanities. Since I was staying in Hong Kong as a visiting scholar, I was able to accept the invitation.

Q. You originally majored in religious studies at the University of Notre Dame. I would like to hear what prompted you to turn your attention to East Asia.

A. In the 1960s, ‘Zen fever’ occurred in the United States. At that time, I was reading a book introducing Zen Buddhism, and at the beginning, it introduced Lao-Zhang Thought. So I thought that Lao-Zhang thought influenced Zen Buddhism, and I became interested in Lao-Zhang thought. So I read 『Zhangzi』, and I wanted to read it properly in the original, so I started studying Chinese and Chinese characters. When I was in my third year of college, a Chinese class happened to be offered. After graduating from college, I went to Taiwan to continue my studies.

Q. In Taiwan, he studied Chinese language and Chinese characters with Aixinjueluo Yuyun(愛新覺羅毓鋆, 1906 ~ 2011) as his teacher. As far as I know, teacher Yuyun studied with Puyi, the last emperor of the Qing Dynasty. After studying abroad in the West, he served as an official in Manchukuo and taught Chinese language and Chinese characters to numerous Western scholars in Taiwan. How did you get connected?

A. Teacher Yuyun was born in 1906. When I met him, he was already over 70. As you mentioned, teacher Yuyun served as an official in Manchukuo and was captured by the Nanjing government around 1947, and then transported to Taiwan and placed under house arrest for about 10 years. Then, around 1960, he began teaching Chinese language and Chinese characters to Westerners, and many of those who received his guidance became famous scholars. For example, there were Nathan Sivin of the University of Pennsylvania, Frederic Wakeman, Jr., and David Keightley of U.C. Berkeley,

and I met Teacher Yuyun through the introduction of Peter K. Bol of Havard University.

Q. You received your doctorate in 1983 on the subject of 『Zhouyi』. Is your connection with 『Zhouyi』 related to Teacher Yuyun?

A. That’s right. Originally, teacher Yuyun taught Confucian scriptures. However, I wanted to study Laozhang thought, so I begged for it, and teacher Yuyun specifically permitted me. So, I first read 『Tao De Ching』, then 『Zhangzi』, and then studied 『Zhouyi』. I studied with teacher Yuyun for three years, and during half of that year, which was one and a half years, I read 『Zhouyi』 twice. Once it was through commentary by Laizhide of the Ming Dynasty, and once it was through commentary by Wangpi of the Wei and Jin Dynasties. Even when I returned to the United States and attended graduate school at Stanford University, I could not let go of Laozhang's thoughts. So, I wanted to write a thesis on the origins of Taoism during the Sui and Tang Dynasties, or 『Zhouyi』. However, my advisor at the time, David S. Nivison, was not very interested in this. Then, I found out that the professor was interested in oracle bone patterns at the time, so I asked the professor to open a class on oracle bone prints. 『Zhouyi』 is a book related to fortune telling, and oracle bone patterns are also related to fortune telling, so I thought that studying the oracle bone patterns would be helpful in understanding 『Zhouyi』. This is how I came to study oracle bone patterns and was able to write a doctoral thesis on the theme of 『Zhouyi』. And in this process, I received a lot of help from Professor David Keightley at U.C. Berkeley.

Q. However, it took almost 40 years for you to publish your doctoral thesis as a book. 

A. Yes. That’s right. At that time, Professor David Keightley suggested that my doctoral thesis be published by U.C Berkeley Press. However, I felt something was lacking to publish it as a book right away. For example, in my opinion, 『Zhouyi』 is a record from the Western Zhou Dynasty. Therefore, in order to study the language of the Western Zhou Dynasty,

it was necessary to study the bronze inscriptions of the Western Zhou Dynasty. So, while studying bronze inscriptions, I first published 『Sources of Western Zhou History: Inscribed Bronze Vessels』 (1991). When I tried to revise my doctoral thesis, new excavated materials related to 『Zhouyi』 continued to be reported. Representative examples are the bamboo book held at the Shanghai Museum and the document called “Calligraphy” held at Tsinghua University. Revising my doctoral thesis to include these materials became a huge challenge. In this situation, in 2015, a request came from China. At the time, China was pursuing the so-called ‘2011 Project’, which involved the task of reorganizing Chinese scriptures using excavated documents. The project’s leaders, Mr. Li Xueqin of Tsinghua University and Mr. Qui Shigui of Fudan University contacted me and asked me to take charge of 『Zhouyi』 I knew this would be a difficult task, so I thought about it and eventually accepted the request. After so many years, I was able to publish 『The Origin and Early Development of the Zhouyi』 (2022).

Q. 『Zhouyi』 is considered the first of the so-called 『Thirteen Classics』. The fact that a foreign scholar was asked to organize 『Zhouyi』, such an important document, seems quite unusual.

A. I also think it’s very unusual. I think it would have been impossible in the current political environment. However, on the other hand, I think that the opportunity has come to me because, among the scholars who combine traditional and excavated documents, no scholar majored in 『Zhouyi』 and has consistently made it a research topic.

Q. In the end, this may be because Chinese academia recognized your research achievements. So wouldn’t it be possible even in the current political environment?

A. Thank you for thinking so.

Q. Please tell us about East Asian studies research in Europe and America.

A. The category of East Asian studies is too large. It’s not possible to tell everything here, but just to talk about history, the changes in China in the 1970s and 1980s were enough to attract the attention of Western people. At the time, developments in Korea and Japan also received attention. In the case of China, archaeological excavations conducted during the Cultural Revolution included, for example, the Terracotta Army of Qin Shi Huang and the excavated documents of Mawngdui and Shuhuji. So many researchers turned their attention to East Asian history, but that is no longer the case. Unfortunately, the number of researchers has decreased significantly, and the results do not seem to be as good as before.

Q. However, the Department of East Asian Language and Cultures at the University of Chicago, where you work, is very influential in East Asian studies in Europe and America, and it seems to be producing a lot of results. Can you please give us a brief introduction?

A. The Department of East Asian Languages and Cultures at the University of Chicago has over 30 instructors. There are many researchers in Chinese studies, and Japanese studies has expanded its ranks since the 1980s. Currently, research is being conducted focusing on modern and contemporary Japan. In Korean studies, there is Professor Kyeong-hee Choi, who studies modern literature, and there are several instructors who teach Korean. I believe that the number of talented people will increase in the future. In the case of ancient Chinese studies, which I study, it can be said that it began in 1936 with Professor Herrlee G. Creel. 『The Birth of China』 (1936) written by Professor Creel had a great influence on academia. I entered the University of Chicago around 1984 after Mr. Creel retired. At this time, I was the only person studying ancient times. Later, in the 1990s, we secured talents such as Wu Hong and Donald Harper, and currently have six professors dating back to the Song Dynasty. In this way, East Asian studies is producing a lot of results as it has the largest team in Europe and America, and its influence in academia is growing.

Q. China is pursuing many government-led projects.

Representative examples include the ‘Xia–Shang–Zhou Chronology Project’, the ‘Chinese Civilization Exploration Project’, and the current ‘Ancient Character Project’ and ‘Ancient China’. etc. What do you think about this trend?

A. There is definitely a positive effect in the sense that the government provides research funds to many scholars. Let’s take the ‘Xia–Shang–Zhou Chronology Project(1996~2000)’ as an example. This project is a large-scale interdisciplinary research project that combines history, archeology, paleography, philology, and even natural sciences such as astronomy. Professor Li Xueqin even said that only socialist countries like China are capable of such large-scale interdisciplinary research. This project was started when a scholar named Song Jian visited the National Museum of Egypt and saw that the chronology of Egypt’s past kings was well-organized. With the question, “Why doesn’t China have something like this?” a proposal was proposed to the Chinese government in 1995, and it was implemented immediately the following year. As many Western scholars have pointed out, China’s push for this project was largely a patriotic idea, to elevate China’s history to align with Egypt.

Q. If the project had been implemented less than a year after Song Jian proposed it, there would have been a lack of mutual understanding between disciplines.

A. That’s right. A brief report was released after the project was completed in 2000. There was a big problem with the report’s content. In a situation where mutual understanding between disciplines was lacking, it was impossible to produce results that would satisfy all scholars participating in the project. So I thought an official report would never come out, but last year, 22 years later, an official report came out. However, over the past 22 years, a lot of evidence was discovered to overturn the existing report, but it was not properly reflected in the official report and the existing results were followed as is. So, I wrote a book review criticizing this,

and plan to translate it into Chinese and publish it in a prestigious Chinese academic journal. I wonder if it is possible in the current political environment.

Q. Can this political environment change?

A. Numerous studies have been conducted since 1978 when the Cultural Revolution ended and Opening-up and Reform began. Academics have become very open, and many of the achievements accumulated over the years have been poured out. Of course, this atmosphere can fluctuate between ‘left’ and ‘right.’ As I mentioned before, China is carrying out many government-led projects. This means that government intervention has increased, but in a way, it is also an opportunity for researchers to accumulate academic knowledge. The political environment is bound to change at some point. If a freer environment is provided, the achievements that researchers have accumulated so far will explode like a flood.

Q. Lastly, please tell us about your future research plans.

A. What we are currently working on is translating and publishing the Warring States period bamboo tablets stored at Tsinghua University into English. I am currently translating it little by little through regular reading, and I believe I will be able to complete it someday. 『The Year of the Bamboo Book』, which is known to have been forged during the Ming Dynasty, has its own historical value. If time is given, I plan to thoroughly study 『The Year of the Bamboo Book』. But how much time is left? This year, I am 71 years old, which is Teacher Yuyun’s age when I met him. Teacher Yuyun lived to the age of 106, and if I were given the same amount of time, I would be able to do more research.

Q. I wish you good health so that you can make further academic contributions. Please say a word to our readers in Korea as they celebrate the new year.

A. Happy New Year to all Korean readers. Thank you.